Schoolgirls who refused to change out of the loose-fitting robes have been sent home with a letter to parents on secularism.
French public schools have sent dozens of girls home for refusing to remove their abayas – long, loose-fitting robes worn by some Muslim women and girls – on the first day of the school year, according to Education Minister Gabriel Attal.
Defying a ban on the garment seen as a religious symbol, nearly 300 girls showed up on Monday morning wearing abayas, Attal told the BFM broadcaster on Tuesday.
Most agreed to change out of the robe, but 67 refused and were sent home, he said.
The government announced last month it was banning the abaya in schools, saying it broke the rules on secularism in education that have already seen headscarves forbidden on the grounds they constitute a display of religious affiliation.
The move gladdened the political right but the hard left argued it represented an affront to civil liberties.
The 34-year-old minister said the girls refused entry on Monday were given a letter addressed to their families saying that “secularism is not a constraint, it is a liberty”.
If they showed up at school again wearing the gown there would be a “new dialogue”.
He added that he was in favour of trialling school uniforms or a dress code amid the debate over the ban.
Uniforms have not been obligatory in French schools since 1968 but have regularly come back on the political agenda, often pushed by conservative and far-right politicians.
Attal said he would provide a timetable later this year for carrying out a trial run of uniforms with any schools that agree to participate.
“I don’t think that the school uniform is a miracle solution that solves all problems related to harassment, social inequalities or secularism,” he said.
But he added: “We must go through experiments, try things out” in order to promote debate, he said.
‘Worst consequences’
Al Jazeera’s Natacha Butler, reporting from Paris before the ban came into force said Attal deemed the abaya a religious symbol which violates French secularism.
“Since 2004, in France, religious signs and symbols have been banned in schools, including headscarves, kippas and crosses,” she said.
“Gabriel Attal, the education minister, says that no one should walk into a classroom wearing something which could suggest what their religion is.”
On Monday, President Emmanuel Macron defended the controversial measure, saying there was a “minority” in France who “hijack a religion and challenge the republic and secularism”.
He said it leads to the “worst consequences” such as the murder three years ago of teacher Samuel Paty for showing Prophet Muhammad caricatures during a civics education class.
“We cannot act as if the terrorist attack, the murder of Samuel Paty, had not happened,” he said in an interview with the YouTube channel, HugoDecrypte.
An association representing Muslims has filed a motion with the State Council, France’s highest court for complaints against state authorities, for an injunction against the ban on the abaya and the qamis, its equivalent dress for men.
The Action for the Rights of Muslims (ADM) motion is to be examined later on Tuesday.
TLDR?
the french won’t let muslim children wear their religious dress in school
Any children, to be fair. It’s not limited to Muslim attire.
yes they are also persecuting sikhs, and the branches of Judaism that mandate wearing yarmulkes etc
And those dastardly Christians.
well except for the fact that Christianity doesn’t have an item of clothing it’s members are expected to wear and thus such a rule doesn’t target Christianity equally
That depends, but it’s probably irrelevant in France. Some churches expect women to wear head coverings, like in the eastern Orthodox church. Mennonite women wear bonnets. Some very fundamentalist churches ban wearing mixed fabrics.
There are also mormons, who wear the “temple garment” underwear
ok that’s fair but christianity as a movement doesn’t have the recognisable item all members are expected to wear and so the rule doesn’t apply to them as much. French catholicism specifically is not affected by such a law
Also France discriminating against the way protestants and other non catholic christians dress would be bad as well.
Some very fundamentalist churches ban wearing mixed fabrics.
It’d be funny if some school uniform used mixed fabrics and there was a fundie Christian outcry over it.
Sincere question. Obviously France is racist as fuck and instituting (or enforcing, whichever) policies in a racist way. But I’m seeing a lot of people saying that these outfits being banned are not actually religious at all, and are only culturally popular within the cultures of the people being targeted. If that’s the case, why are they still coming to school wearing them? If I were a kid and the government suddenly decided I’m not allowed to wear blue jeans to school, I’d wear khaki pants and then meet up with my friends and say “wtf is the deal with this new policy”
If they’re just clothes and not religious garb, why are kids still wearing them to schools which don’t allow them?
It’s a protest. I doubt that their parents would force them to wear the banned clothes knowing full well the kid will be sent back home.
meet up with my friends and say “wtf is the deal with this new policy”
i’d wear blue jeans and say fuck these assholes, and get to go home for a day off
Exactly. Can’t expect kids not to rebel against arbitrary chicanery
Why is it not religious and only cultural? It is more commonly worn by conservative muslims who adhere to strict interpretations of the sacred texts they follow. Based on that it is infact religious. Although I doubt it is a religious symbol like the article mentions.
The wearer of it exists across the globe and not limited to any distinct culture or even region. Further prohibiting a cultural dress is even more weird than the case for religious wears.
Why is it not religious and only cultural?
I don’t know, that’s literally my question.
Marking it as ‘question’ but then making definitive statements based on interactions with ‘others’ is asking a question now ?
To answer your unasked question, depends on how you seperate religion from culture. Its often difficult to do so in many places of the world where religion is widespread among the soceity.
The female clothing requirements are from strict interpretations in islam that is followed to varying degrees mostly based on how religious a person/family is. I’ve had teachers wear full covering on their way to and from school but remove them once inside. There were college classmates who wore head covering everywhere and others almost never in social circles. The behavior varies widely among any given culture.
Some people want to dress modestly. Would you feel uncomfrtable if they told you to strip at school?
What does modestly mean to you?
It means not showing skin or curves
That’s just a modern abusive interpretation of the Koran in some societies anyway. E.g. https://www.abdullahyahya.com/2019/09/proof-muslim-women-dont-have-to-cover-their-hair/
Of course once your family has inculcated in you that body privacy is a duty, you may begin to see it as your right in France where institutions are secular, which creates these integration problems.
If there is a pair of kids in a school who doesn’t want to wear what their parents force on them, to me that is still worth protecting at the expense of Muslim conservative students’ right to wear a traditional dress.
Please, if you want to read on religious matters read from accredited scholars who know what they are doing. This is ridiculous to link a blog post from a web developer… The guy even is a Hadith (transmitted sayings and actions of the prophet, peace be upon him) rejector, making him a non-muslim.
Qur’anists - people who only consider Qur’an as the only source of religious law- are not considered Sunni (people following the Sunna, the teachings of the prophet transcribed in Hadith) who are the majority Muslims. Qur’anists are not taken seriously because they contradict their principle by not following the verses in the Qur’an ordering them to obey the Prophet because whatever he tells or does is part of divine revelation.
If you have a question pertaining to a health issue, you go to the doctor, not the baker.
The conclusions he draws are ludicrous too. The state not mandating it in a period of time has absolutely nothing to do with what the religion mandates. States and laws change, religion does not (except through prophets of God).
To use his last analogy: one needs to be qualified to write about a matter; him writing a blog post about it does not literally require that he is qualified.
Edit: I mean no disrespect to you, sorry if I came as rude. I just wanted to stress that there are many things you can find on the internet and one needs to get his information from reputable sources especially regarding such sensitive matters.
Is an Abaya the only way to accomplish this?
No it is not.
But this law is now being misused to harass kids who are known to be Muslim although they comply with it by wearing something else.
For the non-frog eaters, the linked video is from a right-wing French TV station where they are asking a girl (left) who was denied entrance to her school because of her clothes. This is not a abaya she is wearing and she says other muslim and non-muslim girls wearing the same outfit got no problem going in that same morning. She is known to wear a hijab (which she removes upon being to school as required by the other law).
I will not comment on the interviewers trying to find fault in her or their ignorance.
That seems like a very disingenuous framing. Khaki pants are no more or less modest than jeans. A rule saying “don’t wear this specific article of clothing” is not a rule against dressing modestly, and I’m certain that there are plenty of modestly dressed children of all sorts of cultures at all these schools.
I think you just missed their point, which was about the original clothing being connected to modesty culturally.
I just don’t know if I believe that their culture has exactly one garment considered modest.
Do you think France would be cool with them wearing other garments considered modest by their culture?
I haven’t yet seen evidence they wouldn’t.
Modesty is a cultural framework. If our current society had evolved fron the cultural norms of the yanommame what we consider an aceptable amount of clothes to wear would be much less. In the culture of cartoon bears it is very unusual to wear pants. In the culture of these girls wearing an abaya or similar clothing is the aceptable standard.
Imagine you get transported to an alterative reality were the french goverment banned pants as to make you conform to cartoon bear culture. You would likley be uncomfrtable.
Are you telling me that they have one garment considered modest and all other clothes on earth are immodest?
Edit: also I understand your point but personally I’d fit in just fine in cartoon bear culture, I don’t need pants
“Gabriel Attal, the education minister, says that no one should walk into a classroom wearing something which could suggest what their religion is.”
I was initially torn on this, but as long as it’s for all religions, I support it. I firmly believe that I shouldn’t know your religion unless I ask. Religion is toxic.
I do think you should have the freedom to wear religious signifiers as an adult. I just don’t approve. But I don’t want to stop you. Children in school? This is the same (to me) as requiring them to leave their phones at home.
An Abaya is just a flowing robe.
This ban is like an American school saying you’re allowed to wear cowboy hats but not sombreros because sombreros are associated with catholicism, in that they are mostly associated with the culture of a predominately catholic country.
This is like banning kids from wearing rainbows because it signifies their values.
I support a ban on cowboy boots, too.
Dont compare an Abaya to a rainbow. They are nothing a like.
Then what’s the big deal? No hats.
The rule isn’t no flowing robes.
The rule is “no flowing robes on kids suspected of being muslim”.
So let the french kids who are not muslim, wear these robes and see what happens.
I disagree, the Abaya is not just a flowing robe.
It is a garment that is required by the Sharia law (see Saudi Arabia and other Muslim countries where women are not allowed to choose what they wear).
Allowing this is the first step in letting religion in the public schools in France, where it has always been explicitly banned.
And it is very unlike banning rainbows, those are a symbol used to promote acceptance of the diversity of others, something religions struggle with (ever notice how religion is closely tied with extremism?)
Another factor to take into account is that these young girl may be forced by their family to wear such a garment, imposing upon them something they may not be old enough to refuse.
Also, look up the paradox of intolerance, as allowing anyone to do as they please causes the rise of extremism.
This is a very hyperbolic take on that paradox.
An article of clothing can’t be religious on its own. Saudi Arabia may have done the wrong thing by requiring this specific article of clothing but banning it is also bad.
A girl may want to wear a loose fitting dress for any number of reasons. Some people are just more modest than others and that shouldn’t be punished.
Looking at abaya online, and as a westerner I actually kinda like the style of them as well. I could see them being work as a strictly fashionable article of clothing.
An article of clothing can’t be religious on its own
Really? What about a kippa ? Or a priest’s robes ?
The kippa is forbidden in french schools for this very same reason, it signals religion.
Loose fitting dresses are not forbidden, abayas are. They are a specific kind of loose fitting dresses. One that signals religion.
I don’t see them working as a fashion article, but that may just be my taste.
I really appreciate you engaging in more than just one liners.
I disagree, the Abaya is not just a flowing robe.
It is a garment that is required by the Sharia law (see Saudi Arabia and other Muslim countries where women are not allowed to choose what they wear).
From le Monde
[Saudi Arabia] Since 2022 (…) has outlawed the wearing of abaya for women during examinations.
It is not a religious garment. It is a cultural garment. You’re right that it is often worn by Muslim women/girls to achieve islamic notions of modesty. But it’s predominately worn by people strongly influenced by Arab culture, not muslims everywhere.
I agree that countries should not generally be dictating what people are allowed to wear.
Allowing this is the first step in letting religion in the public schools in France, where it has always been explicitly banned.
Except it’s not the first step in letting religion in schools. It was already allowed and then was banned. The pendulum is swinging away from religious tolerance. It would be more accurate to view the ban as the next step in a series of measures further disembracing France’s ethnic minorities.
And it is very unlike banning rainbows, those are a symbol used to promote acceptance of the diversity of others
So you support symbols of the acceptance of the diversity of others. But you do not support actual acceptance of cultural diversity.
ever notice how religion is closely tied with extremism?
Yes. Too many religions have dark histories/presents.
Another factor to take into account is that these young girl may be forced by their family to wear such a garment, imposing upon them something they may not be old enough to refuse.
I think the best way to help people in situations like this is to get them into environments where they can make strong relationships with people outside their family’s religion. Like public schools.
Also, look up the paradox of intolerance, as allowing anyone to do as they please causes the rise of extremism.
I’m familiar with the concept and agree that limitations to freedom are necessary to protect freedom. But is it intolerance to wear an Abaya or is it intolerance to forbid unfamiliar styles of clothing?
I applaud France’s goal of a secular society. But I think this policy is a misstep.
Look at images of abaya compared to duster cardigans and maybe you’ll see what I mean.
as requiring them to leave their phones at home
you can’t just leave religion and culture at the door and freedom of conscience isn’t a right only adults are entitled to nor is it comparable to playing on your phone
Are kids meaningfully capable of exercising their freedom of conscience though? I’m not suggesting that every religious parent would kick their children out of the house for not dressing a certain way, but I am saying that every religious parent puts their finger on the scale of their kids’ decision. Schools can and should seek to eliminate these kinds of cultural differences within the student body because it teaches kids to segregate themselves, that’s why school uniforms are generally a good thing.
Are kids meaningfully capable of exercising their freedom of conscience though
arguably not but you could also make that argument in favour of all children being forced to wear islamic dress.
yes religious parents put their finger on the scale of the kids decision but so do non-religious parents with regards to their kids religious views that’s just how raising children within a culture works. It’s not a lifetime commitment the same freedom of conscience that means they have a right to practice their faith also means they have a right to abandon it if once they are older they change their minds.
ols can and should seek to eliminate these kinds of cultural differences within the student body because it teaches kids to segregate themselves, that’s why school uniforms are generally a good thing.
school uniforms are a good thing but exemptions to uniform rules on religious grounds have been a long recorded tradition. When the British forced sepoys to use cartridges that meant they had to partially consume beef and pork fat were the Indians wrong to compain or were the British merely removing cultural differences between the Muslims, Hindus, and British.
In the Americas there were schools for native American children where they forced them to dress, eat, speak, and behave “properly” and not practice their religion. The goal was to eliminate their culture and make them homogeneously American or Canadian. (They also killed a fucking ton) This sort of nationalism has generally been looked back on as a mistake and a horrible atrocity. Why should it be acceptable towards other religious groups?
In the Americas there were schools for native American children where they forced them to dress, eat, speak, and behave “properly” and not practice their religion. The goal was to eliminate their culture and make them homogeneously American or Canadian. (They also killed a fucking ton) This sort of nationalism has generally been looked back on as a mistake and a horrible atrocity. Why should it be acceptable towards other religious groups?
These kids aren’t being taken from their families. They aren’t being forced to give up their religion in their homes. These are not the same. This isn’t about “other religious groups.” It’s all religions while at school, and I’m fine with that.
I’m not in support of nationalism. I don’t know if what you said is accurate or not. I simply approve of keeping religion out of schools.
As much as you wish, I don’t think you can because it is a part of one’s life. Whether you are Atheist or practice a religion, the beliefs and practices you have are in my opinion fundamental for you. Let’s take the reverse, would you as an Atheist pretend to believe in a certain religion for 4-6 hours a day just so you could learn? You can take this and experiment with all kinds of situations. Sure, religion shouldn’t be taught in schools, religion has nothing to do with schools but while we shouldn’t teach religion we shouldn’t also take religion out of the human. Your beliefs are fundamental to you. I think there is a certain level of tolerance we should have towards other people as long as they don’t interfere and infringe on the freedoms and liberties of others. Having the freedom to wear what you want and act the way you want while you don’t bother others should be allowed.
If you want to have a private school where everyone follows a specific rule set, regulation, specific formal clothing etc. Go ahead, make your own.
But I do feel public schools as a public good should allow everyone to learn while also not requiring one to remove parts of things that form one’s identity.
would you as an Atheist pretend to believe in a certain religion for 4-6 hours a day
France wants people to not show their religion in school. That’s different from pretending to have another, or no religion.
Like in moments when I don’t wear my favorite sports team’s insignias, I’m not pretending to be fan of another team instead.
I generally wish to respect others. But I can’t help but note that mass shooters are frequently deeply Christian. I’m not advocating for someone to pretend that they believe in another religion or that they don’t believe in their own. I’m mildly offended by people who advertise their religion by wearing a cross above their clothing. I think they should tuck it below so that I don’t know what their religion is because frankly, I find their faith offensive. It’s unfortunate that some religions require that their faithful observe traditions that make it obvious that they are faithful.
Religion is, at its root, a system of control and an excuse for bad behavior. At it’s worst it is a grift and a shortcut to genocide. I know that there are many religious people who are good and descent (my mother, for example), but I still resent that her religion guides her politics in ways that are illogical. I had a friend who believed in 1999 that the earth was ~5000 years old and that dinosaurs were a test of his faith by god. Religion is holding us back.
This is like the democrats who applaud gun control even when it is used with surgical precision to prevent black communities from defending themselves from police violence. “I don’t support police violence, I simply approve of gun control”.
The goal is to replace religion with nationalism
It really isn’t, though?
Okay, so how is this different from saying “I don’t care if they’re gay, as long as it’s in the privacy of their own homes”? It’s the same sentiment about what is (to some) also an immutable characteristic about their personality
This is a strong argument and initially left me speechless. However, religion is something you choose. I don’t think people choose to be gay.
I was initially torn on this, but as long as it’s for all religions, I support it.
The law, in its majestic equality, forbids rich and poor alike to sleep under bridges, to beg in the streets, and to steal their bread
Yea they made it so nobody could wear religious cultural clothes but there’s only one religion that includes wearing those clothes as a belief.
Would you also support a policy that nobody named @some_guy should be allowed to talk, no matter who they are.
Yea they made it so nobody could wear religious cultural clothes but there’s only one religion that includes wearing those clothes as a belief
there are multiple such as Islam and Sikhism to give two examples. This law is just an example of religious persecution against religions that don’t fit in with the French idea of which religions a French person should have
Your right should have said there’s multiple religions it was discriminating against just highlighting how it lines up with Frances history of Islamophobia.
Presumably if a bunch of Mormons or Mennonites or whatever else set up in France and all their kids dressed the same way, the school would step in on that too. Maybe they wouldn’t, but then the problem isn’t the policy it’s biased enforcement.
Yea they made it so nobody could wear religious cultural clothes but there’s only one religion that includes wearing those clothes as a belief.
One, this is not true. Two, this includes other symbols like pendants
The first is a good argument. And I support breaking that law.
The second is a good argument in that I wasn’t factoring the requirement (which I kinda don’t care about because I reject religion, so I know that I’m wrong even though I reject religion, fuck religion). Were religion not so toxic, I would have more sympathy. In this case, I’m gonna sound like a real fuckwad, but assimilate.
The third is just silly.
I’m gonna sound like a real fuckwad, but assimilate.
can’t believe you just said “facing persecution for your religious faith simply don’t be a member of the religious minority being persecuted”
Being religious is a choice, not a birth defect
It’s not a choice when they indoctrinate kids in it, which all religions do.
At which point it becomes child abuse. And the state should step in. Let’s not forget that France also doesn’t permit the display of any religious symbolism instate institutions including Christian. Either these kids are free to choose a different item of clothing, or they’re being abused by their family. Simple.
Every kid of belivers is being rased in their faith, worldwide. It is religious indoctrination and frankly i agree that this is child abuse, but it’s not illegal anywhere. People refraining from this and allowing the children to choose are very rare. And even then it might still not exactly be the choice, in basically all societies there is considerable peer and social pressure to conform to its values.
My North African grandfather lost a leg to untreated necrosis defending that gallic shithole from nazism, they can go assimilate his rotted leg
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Wow. So literally saying they should just assimilate, so much for that whole “they have to respect our culture because we respect theirs”
Also yea the third point was stupid, it was to illustrate how dumb your argument was.
Bit then you just came out and admitted to being a bigot and leapfrogging my point.
I am bigoted against religion. I otherwise accept everyone for who they are. I have no shame in taking this stance.
What the fuck I thought Christopher Hitchens died
Dawkins and Harris yet live, unfortunately
The point people are trying to make is that it’s not the religion that’s being targeted, but the minority non white culture, and it’s being done in a way to hide its true intent, which you are supporting based on its appearance.
This has nothing to do with secularism and everything to do with punishing and invalidating nonwhite culture
I suspect that you’re right and if that’s the case, that’s terrible. I would support removal of religion from schools simply on the basis that it’s the source of most of the world’s wars. In the US, I think we should take the gloves off and churches should pay taxes. I detest that it causes people to vote and behave irrationally and is used as a smoke screen to excuse bad behavior. My support for kicking religion out of schools is based in that and does not apply as a tool to suppress non-western peoples.
It’s unfortunate that what you’re suggesting is probably the real reason. Put me in charge and it really will be because I’m sick of religion in a completely colorblind fashion.
world’s wars
You may have a leg to stand on in terms of premodern history, but for the last 150 years most wars have been due to capitalism, not religion. You are not exactly incorrect, but you are in my view taking symptoms as the disease, when we really need to zoom out, religion itself isn’t the base level problem, its authoritative structures not derived from the consent and for the betterment of the people, religion is but a powerful historical tool
Well if we look at the Romans, Assyrians, British, French, and Germans and their wars it’s abundantly clear that most of their wars were for the aquisition of wealth. The vast majority of wars even in the middle ages were openly about arguments between noble families over land
I would support removal of religion from schools simply on the basis that it’s the source of most of the world’s wars.
This is false. It was used as the pretext for most of the world’s wars, just as secular equality is used as the pretext for this law, but the actual cause of those and virtually all wars lies in material motivations (land, resources, etc), just as the true objective of the law is to forcibly assimilate minorities.
Yea bigots generally aren’t shameful about their bigotry they just usually try to tap dance around the word bigot, good for you for being honest I guess.
LOL
“Just assimilate to Christian culture, Muslims. I’m anti-religion of all kinds, btw.”
You are too caught up in liberal abstraction to allow yourself to understand the material reality.
Lmao conflating Christian culture with Secularism, classic blunder
The kids aren’t being made to attend church on Sunday. They’re being made to be part of a secular society, one that takes its secularism more seriously than many other countries do.
Pure reactionary sophistry. They are not made to go to church, but they still get the Christian Sabbath off but not Muslim Jumu’ah (their equivalent, midday prayer) on Fridays. France is “secular” but it just so happens that the laws of its “secularism” cut in a direction that wildly favors Christianity.
You claim to be a communist, don’t you? You should know this quote:
The law, in its majestic equality, forbids rich and poor alike to sleep under bridges, to beg in the streets, and to steal their bread.
– Anatole France
As I said, liberal abstraction that obscures the deliberate material impact of the laws.
Christian Sabbath off but not Muslim Jumu’ah
hear me out: that just might be, really far stretch I know, but it just might be because the western weekend formed out of the Jewish Sabbath, which was adopted by Christianity. However it is not anymore the justification for having it. The only reason Saturday and Sunday are the weekend is because nobody bothered moving the date after the religious meaning was largely lost on the general population. Religion in Europe is in steep decline, unlike in certain other parts of the western world.
France has a population of ~40% Atheist/Agnostics. If you seriously think Christianity dictates the laws in France you are delusional.
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I was taking an opportunity to demonstrate a point with what you said, not suggesting that all bread stealing should be legalized.
Your ideology is a joke. “Surely, some girl wearing too baggy a dress will hamper education and heighten religious differences. No, we must teach these children tolerance by socializing them in an environment where we have eliminated any visible deviations from the dominant (liberal Christian) culture. Then, when they go out on the street and see people who look different, they will in fact be more tolerant of people with traits alien to how they were socialized.”
Every word you say is just laundering reactionary bullshit under a veil of virtue.
Oh France, always there to show the world that you can be as stupid as America but in completely different ways
Based
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All the students should start wearing abayas.
It will entirely break down the argument that it’s a religious symbol.
While secularism is important for the school as an official institution, the fact that this applies to private persons is absolutely dumb.
All the students should start wearing abayas
Or none should wear abayas?
It will entirely break down the argument that it’s a religious symbol.
That makes zero sense???
and the comment I replied to makes a lot of sense, lmao
If nobody wears it, it enforces the idea that it’s a religious symbol. Everybody wearing it just makes it another piece of clothing.
💡
Nope,
If nobody wears it
it just makes it another piece of clothing.
Be real, the only reason Muslims are making a big deal out of this, its because its a religious symbol. If the government would have banned jeans or whatever, Muslims wouldn’t bat an eye.
I don’t want religion in schools, outside that, you’re still free to practice what you want, but keep religion out of education. France got this one right
Do they ban other forms of religious expression? Crosses/crucifixes? Yarmulke/kippah?
Or is it just Islamic symbols?From what I’ve read they ban all of it. Granted I don’t live there nor do I see it in practice, but they’ve mentioned it in a few articles.
I read up on it a bit more.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_law_on_secularity_and_conspicuous_religious_symbols_in_schools
It seems like regulations on religious attire are selectively applied. Small crosses and stars of David, some variations of Sikh turbans, Fatima’s hands are acceptable and the final decision is left up to school headmasters.
It also sounds like the legislators who created it specifically intended to target Muslim headdress.
It’s one thing to keep religion out of education. It seems that they’re disproportionately concerned about suprsesssing Islam in their schools.
so let girls bring small muslim symbol in their necklaces? that seems fair to me.
I could see that as fair as long as everyone agrees that a small symbol on their neck is an appropriate expression of their religion.
If I were to think of a Muslim country that officially embraces secularism in government what would that look like? What if they said that everyone can wear a discreet head covering. Christians, Jews, Buddhists, Daoists, Jains, etc are also allowed to wear small headscarves appropriate to their religion.
The problem is that headscarves just aren’t generally meaningful to those other religions.
I’m even more suspicious of the intent of the French law since they apparently went out of their way to create an exemption for non-Muslim head scarves. The law seems to be constructed and interpreted as, “If we can tell that its related to Islam, it’s out.” The case where a girl was sent home for wearing a skirt that was too long really just looks like they want to make Muslims (and Muslim girls, in particular) more uncomfortable.
The difference here is that headscarves is a symbol of opression, you have to understand that.
The thing with symbols is that they don’t have have objective meanings. Their meanings are entirely a matter of interpretation and they’re incredibly fluid.
Necklaces can also be symbols of oppression. Chains, in general are far more commonly used as symbols of oppression than any article of clothing. There’s the obvious association with collars that are used to control slaves and livestock. There is also slavery symbolism associated with ankle and wrist bracelets, largely due to their similarity to shackles.
The ultimate test is what the individual thinks of it. If we’re forbidding a girl from wearing some article of clothing that she wants to wear, we’re the oppressors. If we’re truly worried about some situation where parents are forcing their children to wear some clothing a more appropriate response would be to either ban all religious clothing or to adopt a policy of clothing choice being a protected privacy matter and barring schools from discussing a student’s clothing choices with their parents.
From the evidence I’ve seen, this policy is less about protecting the rights of girls and more about using that as a rationalization to marginalize Muslims.
Ah, thanks for the link. Yes, they’re definitely in the wrong if there’s even an iota of selective enforcement.
I want to be very careful around judging the intentions of people who live 5000 miles away and speak a language I don’t understand. There’s a lot of room to misunderstand people’s intentions.
But from what I can see, it’s looking like there’s an intentional bias.
An abaya isn’t religious, they’re just worn in places that are usually Muslim and often worn by Muslims. This is racist discrimination.
even if it was religious (which it partially is) muslims have a right to practice their faith. Keep religion out of education is a slogan that means don’t let religious groups control the content of educational content but has been coopted in this thread to mean “don’t allow children the right to practice their parents faith”
I agree with the first point, and I think if they want to promote secularism (which is good) they should go about it by educating people in philosophy and logical reasoning as an additional class. Although, I still feel saying ‘practice their parents’ faith’ is problematic. I don’t think any kid should be taught that one religion is true since they can’t really logically think or reason and are very emotionally immature, at least before being a teenager. The indoctrination of young children is very damaging and much harder to get out of. This goes for any ideology, but religion especially since belief is based only on faith. They can wear what they want ofc, but there is also a problem with acting like religion can’t be criticised. However, here the way they went about it is just unproductive.
if they want to promote secularism (which is good)
you mean athiesm. Secularism is when you don’t take any stance about what people should believe.
and you can’t just have parents not involve their children in their religious belief even athiest parents involve their children in their beliefs on religion
Somehow this sort of stuff always get portrayed as anti-Muslim, but secularism is a core principle in France and they would kick you for wearing Christian garments just as well.
tbf to France I’m pretty sure that if girls showed up in nun habits they would be sent home too. They make you take off visible jewelry if it has a cross on it AFAIK.
Cross, Star of David, Hand of Fatima, Om, etc.
Pretty much anything associated to (especially monotheistic) religion is a no go.
School in France is strongly Laic, and while it may vary from teacher to teacher (esp. with small symbols - earrings or pendants, etc - and discrete signs - triskelion, wheel of dharma, etc), obvious religious attire will definitely get you in trouble. It’s like entering a bank with your motorcycle helmet on: its color doesn’t matter, people will assume you are ill intended.
People tend to really forget that the defining event for the French republic, the Revolution, was as much about the church as it was about the nobility. And while the French society has regrettably become corrupt with an ever increasing tolerance to the return of nobility, it has fortunately retained a much more rigid stance towards religion. Religion is a personal affair. Once you start making it a public affair, be prepared for very public consequences.
not sure how the way you choose to dress isn’t a private affair
so you have freedom to tell others how to dress and which religious beliefs they can practice but others do not have freedom to dress as they will or practice their religion got it
setting limits on whether or not minority ethnic groups are allowed to practice harmless and innocuous aspects of their faith. Which are enforced by being denied education if they don’t comply.
Call it what you want but these limits are in violation of the UN recognised rights of freedom of conscience and the right to education
France is so impartial towards Muslims, they even do their nuclear tests in unconsenting Muslim countries!
How much of human stupidity can be boiled down to “I don’t like you wearing a silly hat,” I wonder.
It’s not about that, it’s about oppressive religions being forced to be slightly less oppressive, at least in France. Good for them
Oh man the irony of this statement. Jesus Christ.
More ironic than opressive religions asking for tolerance and respect?
I’ll assume you mean this is oppressive against Islam? It’s not, it’s a blanked no-religuous clothing rule and that is perfect.
That this hits islam rather hard is because that religion IS oppressive, especially to women. Girls should be free to dress the way they like and not be told they’re garbage if someone can see their hair or body shape
In EVIL CEE CEE PEE CHYNA, Muslim children are denied education if they wear their cultural attire to school.
bit idea:
shove this in libs’ faces and say “China has already annexed France, it’s over”
Okay colonialism is bad but think of how good the food would be.
pls Xi come and liberate us
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That’s because every liberty is somebody else’s constraint. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_religion_in_France
The French concept of religious freedom did not grow out of an existing pluralism of religions but has its roots in a history with Roman Catholicism as the single official religion and including centuries of persecution of people not endorsing it, or straying from the most official line, from the Cathars to the Huguenots and the Jansenists – this lasted until the French Revolution.
French insistence on the lack of religion in all things public (laïcité or secularism) is a notable feature in the French ideal of citizenship. This concept of secularism, also plays a role in ongoing discussions about the wearing of scarves by Muslim women in public schools. In 2004, the French Parliament passed a law prohibiting the wearing of ostentatious religious garb in public primary and secondary schools; motivations included the tradition of keeping religious and political debates and proselytism out of such schools, as well as the preservation of the freedom of Muslim female students forced to wear certain costumes out of peer pressure.
Freedom to and freedom from.
France just values the freedom from higher than the freedom to. That’s usually a more social approach
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yep, your slavery increases somebody else’s freedom from work, but they are not the same thing, that “is” is doing some heavy lifting there.
The point by George Orwell is that when you accept propaganda soundbites unthinkingly, you become somebody’s tool.
Well they should have voted then
Racism against children must be one of these “western values” I’ve been hearing so much about.
Religion is not a race
Race is made up. Anything can be a race if you treat it like one. And Muslims are treated like one.
Religion is not a race
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as if that’s not used as a cudgel against brown people anyway
Really disappointing to see this 2012 discourse point brought up by a lemmygrad user. As a communist you should know that race is made up, a social construct with no basis in reality. Any group that is treated like a race is a race within that culture. And Muslims have been racialized in most Western countries, and ESPECIALLY so in France.
“Its not rocket science” actually the subject of race is a pretty complex topic in sociology! Maybe you should read a book or two about it.
I want to ban people from eating tuna mayo sandwiches and rotting shark I’m not racist
French people will claim that secularism is the most important value in all of France but them half of the national days off are Catholic holidays.
Also I’m willing to bet really good money that if a nun wore a habit to a beach, she wouldn’t get fined. A muslim woman wearing a burkini would though.
Because we keep national days purely for religious reasons, right? How about we abolish Halloween too, all those hypocrite atheists all over the world pretending not to believe in religions.
There’s such a thing as cultural heritage. Revolutionaries tried to do away with it but it didn’t take. Most of them were pagan holidays which were co-opted by the church anyway.
You’re mistaken on the definition of racism. This has nothing to do with race and everything to do with how France deals with secularism
You’re arguing with people from Hexbear. You’d have better luck against a brick wall.
Hexbears: Stronger than brick walls.
You heard it here first folks!
Thicker than a brick wall maybe ;-)
Love to tacitly admit I can’t have a conversation if the other person points out things like “why what I said was wrong”
:)
Yeah no shit a brick wall will let you say all the dumb shit you want without pushback
Step right up
I agree, face the wall
Religion in France is racialized as it is in most parts of the world, pretending otherwise is just a denial of reality and history, the French state couldn’t care less for secularism on its own merits, it only cares about religion in the context of the eternal “immigrant” communities who it refuses to actually integrate because of the continuous French colonial mindset and a 19th century conception of frenchness which is centered around white pan-europeanism
If secularism was the point, the french state would have launched a social crusade against the Catholic church decades ago
It’s not a coincidence the law was implemented in 2004 at the height of the war on terror
I think you’re underestimating how aggressive french laicity originally had to be to extract a church that was entrenched deep within government and culture and felt entitled to exert more ultraconservative political influence than it is today:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1905_French_law_on_the_Separation_of_the_Churches_and_the_State
In 1886, another law ensured secularisation of the teaching staff of the National Education.[10][11]
Other moves towards secularism included:
the introduction of divorce and a requirement that civil marriages be performed in a civil ceremony[12]
legalizing work on Sundays[13][14]
making seminarians subject to conscription[14][15]
secularising schools and hospitals[8][12]
abolishing the law ordaining public prayers at the beginning of each parliamentary session and of the assizes[14][16]
ordering soldiers not to frequent Catholic clubs[17]
removing the religious character from the judicial oath and religious symbols from courtrooms[18]
forbidding the participation of the armed forces in religious processions[14]
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secular means not taking a religious stance and being neutral about it. Being secular would mean letting people wear them as they choose not allowing people to wear religious attire is taking a religious stance and thus isn’t secular
rather than secularity this is religious persecution
No, secularism is about people having the freedom of religion. Being forced by family or peers to wear religious clothing is incompatible with freedom of religion.
What’s even the point of this line of argument? At best you prove that this technically isn’t racism in the strictest definitional sense but it’s still just as harmful to kids and Muslims as racism.
I don’t think you could define this as strictly not racist, since “race” constitutes arbitrary characteristics decided upon largely by white hegemony. It’s how Africans became a singular black race despite being different cultures and language groups. It’s why Jews are sometimes white, sometimes not.
It’s absolutely why most Americans consider a native Spanish speaker a different race, no matter how white they are. We’re in a moment where being Muslim is a racial marker excluding a person from whiteness.
Here’s a trick I do. Go show an uniformed white American a picture of Bashar al-Assad. Every time I’ve done this, they’ll say he’s a white guy. Then tell them he’s the president of Syria and a Muslim. They instantly flip.
It’s not racism, it’s just a racism-adjacent form of bigotry. Feeling owned yet, tankie?
Actually, I shot everyone in that refugee camp regardless of religion so I didn’t do genocide, just ordinary everyday mass murder
.
This was an actual argument that was run in one of the Yugoslav tribunals BTW.
If it’s not from the racism region of France than it’s just sparkling bigotry
Yeah, everything to do with secularism. That’s why France has Christian public holidays. And Macron called for closer ties between the state and Catholic church, and said Europe has “Judeo Christian roots”. Oh wait…
Europe doesn’t have judeo-christian roots?
No, it has Christian roots. I’m Jewish, and I hate the term “Judeo-christian.” We do not believe the same things, and we do not share the same history. Christians have been persecuting us for well over a thousand years, they’ve driven us out of our homes, murdered us en-masse multiple times in multiple different countries in multiple different centuries, and have refused to give us any respect and dignity until after World War 2, when it became politically convenient for them to do so.
Our values are different, our history is different, the only thing we have in common is that the Christians read our bible sometimes when it’s convenient for them to cite it to reinforce their intolerance.
Fair enough, though one could also see it at recognizing the Jewish roots of the christian religion. And I genuinely believe that the holocaust and general hardships endured during WW2 bought the Jewish people a fair amount of goodwill, it’s not all cynical political calculations.
It got us so much good will that the French still ban us from wearing religious garments in public, and antisemitic attacks across Europe have been increasing steadily for at least 20 years, with governments seemingly unable to do anything about it.
If you “recognize your roots” but changed your name and also have spent your entire lifetime attempting to murder your parents and grandparents, I think it’s fair to say that you don’t respect or care about your roots.
the French still ban us from wearing religious garments in public
This is completely wrong. You are legally free to wear a kippa or any other religious signs almost everywhere in France. Exceptions are:
- in public schools
- at work if:
- you’re a civil servant
- there is a legitimate reason for a ban (security, hygiene, …)
That’s literally it. I lived in a Jewish neighborhood in Paris and saw kippas constantly, nobody gave a fuck.
If you “recognize your roots” but changed your name and also have spent your entire lifetime attempting to murder your parents and grandparents, I think it’s fair to say that you don’t respect or care about your roots.
OK?
Again, this is not racism. There are white Muslims and black christians everywhere in France
Ok it’s a slightly different form of bigotry does that make it ok since your only argument seems to be “it’s not racism because it doesn’t explicitly say it’s discriminating against a specific race”
You’re right, it’s not ok
Racism isn’t exclusively about skin color you dolt.
From wikipedia:
Racism is discrimination and prejudice towards people based on their race or ethnicity.
Did you know Irish people were considered “not white” at some point in history?
Germans too!
“The law in it’s great magnanimity prohibits poor and rich alike from sleeping under bridges and stealing bread.”.
A law can be applied equally to everyone and still target a specific group of people.
I would be less likely to reject that totally if it wasn’t because of the obvious inequality of enforcement
Firstly, Religon is a choice, nothing about your skin tone or where you were born scientifically dictates you must follow a Religon.
Secondly, this applies to all religions in France, it’s just that one particular religion takes their costumes a bit more seriously than others so it seems like they’re being singled out.
I’m French and actually he’s bang on the money, it’s entirely about racism under the bullshit cover of “secularity”
I’m also French and I don’t know, maybe you’re right and that’s a way to hide the real racist motives. I’m probably biased because I dislike all religions equally though
Dislike all religions equally… blah blah blah… some religions more equally than others blah blah
Maybe think of the outcome of your country’s rightism instead of being so preoccupied with sticking it to the religions
When did the far left become so pro-religon? Back when I used to go to punk shows as a teen, the far left were militantly atheist.
There’s a difference between not believing in a religion and not wanting the views of religion forced apon you. (secularism)
Vs.
Banning all religious symbolism. (Fascism)
I think fascism is a bit far unless they’re banning the religon at all and are investigating people at home or closing mosques.
I’m an antitheist and, speaking as one, let me request that you pull your head out of whatever it is stuck in. France is notoriously Islamophobic and these are girls who are just wearing loose-fitting clothes because of a religious practice based on modesty. Is either the religion or the practice itself above critique? Certainly not, but forcing people not to do something so harmless is ridiculous religious discrimination.
You know what? I’ll think about it
Props honestly, I definitely have a hard time not digging my heels in
Do they ban catholic children wearing crosses around their necks?
Yes of it’s visible. Religious symbols are allowed to be worn if they are not visible.
I think a better line is that they have school on Fridays but not on Sundays
Religion is a private matter. When you start spreading it all over the place, then no, it has no place in school or in our (France) society in general.
I was the victim of this attitude when I was a teen and my family wanted me to follow our religion and yet I still agree with this attitude. My main beef wasn’t with the institution but with how specific teachers decided to deal with me. Ultimately I got over religion, and hopefully some of those kids will, too.They do according to the article and what I know
Yes
“You can’t be racist against Mexicans because it’s a country not a race!”
Well, yes. “Hating Mexicans” is not racism. Just like hating the French, Poles, or Americans. It’s nationalism, xenophobia, chauvinism etc, but not racism
Words matter. There are different ones for a reason
“You can’t be racist against Irish Catholics because it’s a religion not a race”
Oh cool, looking forward to this rehashing of the 2017 era “Islam isn’t a race, therefore islamophobia has no connection to racism” rhetoric.